File talk:Wydmoor WIP.png - Revision history

Msallen at 16:41, 28 December 2020

2020-12-28T16:41:54Z

← Older revision		Revision as of 16:41, 28 December 2020
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	Green is Pasture and Yellow is Agriculture? [[User:Detarame\|Detarame]] ([[User talk:Detarame\|talk]]) 00:04, 28 December 2020 (UTC)		Green is Pasture and Yellow is Agriculture? [[User:Detarame\|Detarame]] ([[User talk:Detarame\|talk]]) 00:04, 28 December 2020 (UTC)
			:At this point it could be whatever we want. In my head it was yellow = aggriculture/pasture, dark green = heavy trees, light green = grass and light trees, grey = paved. I was going to start converting some of the spaces in between blocks to light green + some dark green. --[[User:Msallen\|Msallen]] ([[User talk:Msallen\|talk]])

	Holy shit, this thing has come along! [[User:Detarame\|Detarame]] ([[User talk:Detarame\|talk]]) 02:18, 9 October 2020 (UTC)		Holy shit, this thing has come along! [[User:Detarame\|Detarame]] ([[User talk:Detarame\|talk]]) 02:18, 9 October 2020 (UTC)

Detarame at 00:04, 28 December 2020

2020-12-28T00:04:55Z

← Older revision		Revision as of 00:04, 28 December 2020
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			Green is Pasture and Yellow is Agriculture? [[User:Detarame\|Detarame]] ([[User talk:Detarame\|talk]]) 00:04, 28 December 2020 (UTC)

	Holy shit, this thing has come along! [[User:Detarame\|Detarame]] ([[User talk:Detarame\|talk]]) 02:18, 9 October 2020 (UTC)		Holy shit, this thing has come along! [[User:Detarame\|Detarame]] ([[User talk:Detarame\|talk]]) 02:18, 9 October 2020 (UTC)

Detarame at 02:18, 9 October 2020

2020-10-09T02:18:09Z

← Older revision		Revision as of 02:18, 9 October 2020
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			Holy shit, this thing has come along! [[User:Detarame\|Detarame]] ([[User talk:Detarame\|talk]]) 02:18, 9 October 2020 (UTC)

	In response to the conversation below, I think the numbers are still to big. If the Wyd walls enclose a square mile, were still looking at 33k nyc densities. I do think pivoting to think about 2 story limits is smart, I was definitely thinking tenement style NYC layouts and that's just too urban. That gives me the excuse to cut down the building density (and thus the tedium) as much as we want to get the numbers we need. I'll probably add in some more open space between houses and embedded in blocks, as well as make the buildings bigger. If I cut by 40% that would bring us down to a 20k/sq mile density, is that still too high for the city proper? --[[User:Msallen\|Msallen]] ([[User talk:Msallen\|talk]])		In response to the conversation below, I think the numbers are still to big. If the Wyd walls enclose a square mile, were still looking at 33k nyc densities. I do think pivoting to think about 2 story limits is smart, I was definitely thinking tenement style NYC layouts and that's just too urban. That gives me the excuse to cut down the building density (and thus the tedium) as much as we want to get the numbers we need. I'll probably add in some more open space between houses and embedded in blocks, as well as make the buildings bigger. If I cut by 40% that would bring us down to a 20k/sq mile density, is that still too high for the city proper? --[[User:Msallen\|Msallen]] ([[User talk:Msallen\|talk]])
	:: Don't get me wrong, some cities could reach very close to modern levels of urban density in a one square mile area, but only under pretty exceptional circumstances. [[User:Detarame\|Detarame]] ([[User talk:Detarame\|talk]]) 01:35, 16 October 2018 (UTC)		:: Don't get me wrong, some cities could reach very close to modern levels of urban density in a one square mile area, but only under pretty exceptional circumstances. [[User:Detarame\|Detarame]] ([[User talk:Detarame\|talk]]) 01:35, 16 October 2018 (UTC)

Slitherrr at 15:16, 16 October 2018

2018-10-16T15:16:35Z

← Older revision		Revision as of 15:16, 16 October 2018
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	I guess after writing this I decided that maybe the density isn't wrong, but you've thought about this a whole lot more. Check my work before I spent 10s of hours drawing all these tiny little buildings!		I guess after writing this I decided that maybe the density isn't wrong, but you've thought about this a whole lot more. Check my work before I spent 10s of hours drawing all these tiny little buildings!

	M.D. Jones <detarame@gmail.com>		M.D. Jones <detarame [at] gmail [dot] com>
	Sun, Aug 26, 9:16 PM		Sun, Aug 26, 9:16 PM
	to me		to me

Detarame at 01:35, 16 October 2018

2018-10-16T01:35:36Z

← Older revision		Revision as of 01:35, 16 October 2018
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	In response to the conversation below, I think the numbers are still to big. If the Wyd walls enclose a square mile, were still looking at 33k nyc densities. I do think pivoting to think about 2 story limits is smart, I was definitely thinking tenement style NYC layouts and that's just too urban. That gives me the excuse to cut down the building density (and thus the tedium) as much as we want to get the numbers we need. I'll probably add in some more open space between houses and embedded in blocks, as well as make the buildings bigger. If I cut by 40% that would bring us down to a 20k/sq mile density, is that still too high for the city proper? --[[User:Msallen\|Msallen]] ([[User talk:Msallen\|talk]])		In response to the conversation below, I think the numbers are still to big. If the Wyd walls enclose a square mile, were still looking at 33k nyc densities. I do think pivoting to think about 2 story limits is smart, I was definitely thinking tenement style NYC layouts and that's just too urban. That gives me the excuse to cut down the building density (and thus the tedium) as much as we want to get the numbers we need. I'll probably add in some more open space between houses and embedded in blocks, as well as make the buildings bigger. If I cut by 40% that would bring us down to a 20k/sq mile density, is that still too high for the city proper? --[[User:Msallen\|Msallen]] ([[User talk:Msallen\|talk]])
			:: Don't get me wrong, some cities could reach very close to modern levels of urban density in a one square mile area, but only under pretty exceptional circumstances. [[User:Detarame\|Detarame]] ([[User talk:Detarame\|talk]]) 01:35, 16 October 2018 (UTC)


	Some notes on estimation between Jones and me:		Some notes on estimation between Jones and me:

Msallen at 22:17, 13 October 2018

2018-10-13T22:17:40Z

← Older revision		Revision as of 22:17, 13 October 2018
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	In response to the conversation below, I think the numbers are still to big. If the Wyd walls enclose a square mile, were still looking at 33k nyc densities. I do think pivoting to think about 2 story limits is smart, I was definitely thinking tenement style NYC layouts and that's just too urban. That gives me the excuse to cut down the building density (and thus the tedium) as much as we want to get the numbers we need. I'll probably add in some more open space between houses and embedded in blocks, as well as make the buildings bigger~~. How's the distribution? 3% wealth, 15% middle class, 80% poor seems good to me~~. If I cut by 40% that would bring us down to a 20k/sq mile density, is that still too high for the city proper? --[[User:Msallen\|Msallen]] ([[User talk:Msallen\|talk]])		In response to the conversation below, I think the numbers are still to big. If the Wyd walls enclose a square mile, were still looking at 33k nyc densities. I do think pivoting to think about 2 story limits is smart, I was definitely thinking tenement style NYC layouts and that's just too urban. That gives me the excuse to cut down the building density (and thus the tedium) as much as we want to get the numbers we need. I'll probably add in some more open space between houses and embedded in blocks, as well as make the buildings bigger. If I cut by 40% that would bring us down to a 20k/sq mile density, is that still too high for the city proper? --[[User:Msallen\|Msallen]] ([[User talk:Msallen\|talk]])

	Some notes on estimation between Jones and me:		Some notes on estimation between Jones and me:

Msallen at 21:57, 13 October 2018

2018-10-13T21:57:44Z

← Older revision		Revision as of 21:57, 13 October 2018
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	~~Work in progress map for~~ the ~~new Wydmoor city~~. ~~Versions 1~~ and ~~2 are~~ the ~~current map frame overlayed on two versions of~~ the ~~AR map from 1399~~ and ~~1401~~. I ~~have another from 1402 but it doesn~~'~~t really~~ add ~~information~~. I ~~think the 1401 was~~ a ~~lost map redo but I'm not sure. This~~ is ~~a tedious project right now because of~~ the ~~building development.~~		In response to the conversation below, I think the numbers are still to big. If the Wyd walls enclose a square mile, were still looking at 33k nyc densities. I do think pivoting to think about 2 story limits is smart, I was definitely thinking tenement style NYC layouts and that's just too urban. That gives me the excuse to cut down the building density (and thus the tedium) as much as we want to get the numbers we need. I'll probably add in some more open space between houses and embedded in blocks, as well as make the buildings bigger. How's the distribution? 3% wealth, 15% middle class, 80% poor seems good to me. If I cut by 40% that would bring us down to a 20k/sq mile density, is that still too high for the city proper? --[[User:Msallen\|Msallen]] ([[User talk:Msallen\|talk]])

	Some notes on estimation between Jones and me:		Some notes on estimation between Jones and me:

Msallen: Created page with "Work in progress map for the new Wydmoor city. Versions 1 and 2 are the current map frame overlayed on two versions of the AR map from 1399 and 1401. I have another from 1402..."

2018-10-13T18:29:07Z

Created page with "Work in progress map for the new Wydmoor city. Versions 1 and 2 are the current map frame overlayed on two versions of the AR map from 1399 and 1401. I have another from 1402..."

New page

Work in progress map for the new Wydmoor city. Versions 1 and 2 are the current map frame overlayed on two versions of the AR map from 1399 and 1401. I have another from 1402 but it doesn't really add information. I think the 1401 was a lost map redo but I'm not sure. This is a tedious project right now because of the building development.

Some notes on estimation between Jones and me:

I've flushed out a few blocks in each socioeconomic group, which are color coded on the map but are broadly red = poor, blue = middle, and purple = rich. Generally would assume poor are more densely packed but buildings per acre and people per building, so population density would be far more sparse in the rich areas.

My gut writing this is I'm probably too dense with the current layout, but here is a thought exercise around this:

I'm going to try to estimate what the population of this city would be based on extrapolating the people/building and building/block ratios. Let's say poor buildings hold 6 families of 8 (extended and multi-generation) so 50 people per building. There's probably 25 buildings per block and maybe 70 blocks of this (very fuzzy counting). That's 87,500 poor. I've got a table here to cover all the groups.

{|
!Social group!!People per Buildings!!Buildings per Block!!Blocks!!Total
|-
|Poor||50||25||70||87500
|-
|Middle class||25||12||40||12000
|-
|Wealthy||15||7||20||2100
|-
|Total||||||||101600
|}

Here are the two assumptions I have the lowest confidence in. First is that the people/building goes down so drastically, especially since the buildings are bigger. Second is that the poor people/buildings are so low, I wonder if those numbers should be higher.

I guess after writing this I decided that maybe the density isn't wrong, but you've thought about this a whole lot more. Check my work before I spent 10s of hours drawing all these tiny little buildings!

M.D. Jones <detarame@gmail.com>
Sun, Aug 26, 9:16 PM
to me

I kind of love using this crazy voodoo math to figure all this out. I don't mind the city being a bit larger than in the olden times, but i'd think something like 30k or so would be the target. Megacities still need to be rare or nonexistant in the setting, I think, just for theme. I think you are correct in terms of family size and density by class, at least enough for a make believe census.

The same magic that explains larger populations (better health outcomes) also leads to better family planning (hedge magic contraception, less infant mortality). If that's the case, we can start by taking all of the average family sizes down by 30-50% and see where that leaves us. Maybe, like a -40% / -50% / -60% poor/middle/rich adjustment? Just that macro adjustment gets us to 50,000 + 6,000 + 1000 = 57,000. Still too large, as you will see, but closer.

Another thing to consider: in residential areas, buildings are basically never going to be above two stories which allows us to revise the density downward somewhat. "6 families of 8 (extended and multi-generation) so 50 people per building." Is a hell of a lot for a two floor, 20x30 structure. 3 Families of 4-6 doesn't per building doesn't seem unreasonable. That's 12-28 folks per structure, which also gets us down to a much saner number. I think the number of people per building for both poor and middle is way off, though probably rich is about right (because they have servants and shit). I've already given some solid reasons to revise the poor numbers downward. As for the center, consider a lot of middle class people are going to be the artisans an merchants who live at their place of work, so there will be a LOT of middle class residences that are like 5-7 people.

I mean: The population density for NYC in general is 27,000 per square mile. The population density for Manhattan is 67,000 per square mile. Wydmoor is between .75 and 1.1 square miles. There is no chance that Wydmoor has twice the population density of New York, much less Manhattan, even with magic. There are only two cities on earth right now that have 100,000 people per square mile, and the #3 most dense city on earth would be well behind wydmoor with only 75k/sq mi.

Here is an interesting article, move down to the part about cities:
https://medium.com/migration-issues/notes-on-medieval-population-geography-fd062449364f

← Older revision		Revision as of 16:41, 28 December 2020
Line 1:		Line 1:
	Green is Pasture and Yellow is Agriculture? [[User:Detarame\|Detarame]] ([[User talk:Detarame\|talk]]) 00:04, 28 December 2020 (UTC)		Green is Pasture and Yellow is Agriculture? [[User:Detarame\|Detarame]] ([[User talk:Detarame\|talk]]) 00:04, 28 December 2020 (UTC)
			:At this point it could be whatever we want. In my head it was yellow = aggriculture/pasture, dark green = heavy trees, light green = grass and light trees, grey = paved. I was going to start converting some of the spaces in between blocks to light green + some dark green. --[[User:Msallen\|Msallen]] ([[User talk:Msallen\|talk]])

	Holy shit, this thing has come along! [[User:Detarame\|Detarame]] ([[User talk:Detarame\|talk]]) 02:18, 9 October 2020 (UTC)		Holy shit, this thing has come along! [[User:Detarame\|Detarame]] ([[User talk:Detarame\|talk]]) 02:18, 9 October 2020 (UTC)

← Older revision		Revision as of 02:18, 9 October 2020
Line 1:		Line 1:
			Holy shit, this thing has come along! [[User:Detarame\|Detarame]] ([[User talk:Detarame\|talk]]) 02:18, 9 October 2020 (UTC)

	In response to the conversation below, I think the numbers are still to big. If the Wyd walls enclose a square mile, were still looking at 33k nyc densities. I do think pivoting to think about 2 story limits is smart, I was definitely thinking tenement style NYC layouts and that's just too urban. That gives me the excuse to cut down the building density (and thus the tedium) as much as we want to get the numbers we need. I'll probably add in some more open space between houses and embedded in blocks, as well as make the buildings bigger. If I cut by 40% that would bring us down to a 20k/sq mile density, is that still too high for the city proper? --[[User:Msallen\|Msallen]] ([[User talk:Msallen\|talk]])		In response to the conversation below, I think the numbers are still to big. If the Wyd walls enclose a square mile, were still looking at 33k nyc densities. I do think pivoting to think about 2 story limits is smart, I was definitely thinking tenement style NYC layouts and that's just too urban. That gives me the excuse to cut down the building density (and thus the tedium) as much as we want to get the numbers we need. I'll probably add in some more open space between houses and embedded in blocks, as well as make the buildings bigger. If I cut by 40% that would bring us down to a 20k/sq mile density, is that still too high for the city proper? --[[User:Msallen\|Msallen]] ([[User talk:Msallen\|talk]])
	:: Don't get me wrong, some cities could reach very close to modern levels of urban density in a one square mile area, but only under pretty exceptional circumstances. [[User:Detarame\|Detarame]] ([[User talk:Detarame\|talk]]) 01:35, 16 October 2018 (UTC)		:: Don't get me wrong, some cities could reach very close to modern levels of urban density in a one square mile area, but only under pretty exceptional circumstances. [[User:Detarame\|Detarame]] ([[User talk:Detarame\|talk]]) 01:35, 16 October 2018 (UTC)